Abortion opponents will target new Iowa clinic By TONY LEYS • tleys@dmreg.com • November 12, 2010 Comments (238) Recommend (3) Print this page E-mail this article Share Del.icio.us Facebook Digg Reddit Newsvine Buzz up!Twitter FarkIt Type Size A A A Iowa abortion opponents say they will work to block a Nebraska abortion provider from opening a clinic in Council Bluffs. Dr. LeRoy Carhart has been the center of controversy for years because he performs late-term abortions. This week, he told reporters that he intends to open clinics in Council Bluffs, Indianapolis and the suburbs of Washington, D.C. Nebraska has a new law banning abortions after 20 weeks of gestation. Iowa law allows abortions after the second trimester if a doctor believes the procedure is needed to "preserve the life or health" of the woman. "Obviously, Carhart sees that as a big loophole or he wouldn't be planning to come here," said Jenifer Bowen, executive director of Iowa Right to Life. Bowen and other abortion opponents say they will renew their push for tighter Iowa restrictions on late-term abortions. They note that Iowans voted last week to add more anti-abortion politicians to the Statehouse. Those include former Gov. Terry Branstad, a Republican who was elected to resume his leadership of the state. Current Gov. Chet Culver, a Democrat, supports abortion rights, as did his predecessor, Democrat Tom Vilsack. "We have a real opportunity this session, as opposed to past years," said Maggie DeWitte, executive director of Iowans for Life. Branstad, who is out of the country on vacation, could not be reached for comment. Carhart said he intends to maintain his current clinic in Bellevue, Neb., while opening the three new clinics. "There's certainly a need, and these areas are where the laws are favorable for us to do the practice that I need to do," Carhart said. He did not say where the Council Bluffs clinic would be or when it would open. He said he has raised enough money to open the Washington clinic, but he is still soliciting donations for the others. Nebraska's new law is based on the idea that fetuses can feel pain after 20 weeks. The law departs from the standard of viability — generally considered to be between 22 and 24 weeks — established by the 1973 Supreme Court ruling in Roe vs. Wade. Carhart said he believes Nebraska's fetal pain law is unconstitutional, and his plan to open new clinics is designed partly to help him withstand a prolonged court battle. Planned Parenthood of the Heartland, which is Iowa's main abortion provider, operates a clinic in Council Bluffs. Planned Parenthood officials declined to comment on Carhart's plans or on the prospect of a renewed abortion debate in the Iowa Legislature. Republicans, who tend to favor abortion restrictions, regained control of the Iowa House of Representatives in last week's elections. Democrats maintained control of the Iowa Senate. The majority leader in the Senate, who decides which bills are debated, is Michael Gronstal, a Council Bluffs Democrat who has voted against abortion restrictions in the past. Gronstal could not be reached for comment Thursday. This article includes reporting by the Associated Press. alphakat wrote: Bowen sees the life and health of the woman as a "pretty big loophole"? Wow, that's insane. I'm sure I'm safe in saying that the overwhelming majority of people are in favor of limiting late term abortions, but when it comes to saving the live of the mother vs. the fetus, there should be no contest. Bowen, you're cracked. 11/15/2010 12:54:02 PM Bowen sees the life and health of the woman as a "pretty big loophole"? Wow, that's insane. I'm sure I'm safe in saying that the overwhelming majority of people are in favor of limiting late term abortions, but when it comes to saving the live of the mother vs. the fetus, there should be no contest. Bowen, you're cracked. alphakat RecommendNew Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse IaCty wrote: Replying to jojo2004: Replying to IaCty:ifts somethings not alive then how does it grow??? Sperm grow. Are they a "life"? A fetus isn't a life under any scientifically accepted definition of life. 11/13/2010 10:04:50 PM Replying to jojo2004:
Replying to IaCty:ifts somethings not alive then how does it grow???


Sperm grow. Are they a "life"?

A fetus isn't a life under any scientifically accepted definition of life.

IaCty Recommend(1)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse live4dving wrote: Replying to usaone: YES IT'S THE WOMANS RIGHT TO SAY NO TO SEX, YES SHE HAS THE RIGHT TO MAKE SURE THEY USE PROTECTION NOT TO GET PREGNANT. How, exactly then, do you square this proposition with the rape victim who is impregnated by her assaulter? She didn't have a choice in either of your two scenarios... 11/13/2010 4:27:08 PM Replying to usaone:
YES IT'S THE WOMANS RIGHT TO SAY NO TO SEX, YES SHE HAS THE RIGHT TO MAKE SURE THEY USE PROTECTION NOT TO GET PREGNANT.


How, exactly then, do you square this proposition with the rape victim who is impregnated by her assaulter? She didn't have a choice in either of your two scenarios... live4dving Recommend(1)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse Ben666 wrote: Replying to usaone: YES IT'S THE WOMANS RIGHT TO SAY NO TO SEX, YES SHE HAS THE RIGHT TO MAKE SURE THEY USE PROTECTION NOT TO GET PREGNANT. ONCE SHE GETS PREGNANT THEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TWO LIVES. WHEN SOMEONE GETS PREGNANT, THEY DON'T GO AROUND SAYING "I'M HAVING A MASS OF CELLS", NO THEY SAY I'M GOING TO HAVE A BABY they say they are *going to have* in future tense. 11/13/2010 11:46:58 AM Replying to usaone:
YES IT'S THE WOMANS RIGHT TO SAY NO TO SEX, YES SHE HAS THE RIGHT TO MAKE SURE THEY USE PROTECTION NOT TO GET PREGNANT. ONCE SHE GETS PREGNANT THEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TWO LIVES. WHEN SOMEONE GETS PREGNANT, THEY DON'T GO AROUND SAYING "I'M HAVING A MASS OF CELLS", NO THEY SAY I'M GOING TO HAVE A BABY


they say they are *going to have* in future tense.
Ben666 Recommend(1)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse live4dving wrote: Replying to usaone: YES IT'S THE WOMANS RIGHT TO SAY NO TO SEX, YES SHE HAS THE RIGHT TO MAKE SURE THEY USE PROTECTION NOT TO GET PREGNANT. ONCE SHE GETS PREGNANT THEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TWO LIVES. WHEN SOMEONE GETS PREGNANT, THEY DON'T GO AROUND SAYING "I'M HAVING A MASS OF CELLS", NO THEY SAY I'M GOING TO HAVE A BABY, A NEW LIFE. fOR ALL OF YOU THAT SAY IT'S OK TO TELL WOMAN TO HAVE ABORTIONS WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO SAY TO THESE LITTLE SOULS WHEN YOUR LIFE COMES TO AN END? So, no abortions. That second "life" is sacrosanct. How come you "pro-lifers" don't argue too control EVERY aspect of the pregnant woman's life? You don't force women to stop smoking or getting drunk even though there are known biological--sometimes fatal--consequences which will severely impact the baby later in life. You people don't value life. Someone is doing one thing with their body that you don't like--removing a parasite. That bothers YOU, so you tell them how to live. Hypocrites. Every one of you. 11/13/2010 10:04:32 AM Replying to usaone:
YES IT'S THE WOMANS RIGHT TO SAY NO TO SEX, YES SHE HAS THE RIGHT TO MAKE SURE THEY USE PROTECTION NOT TO GET PREGNANT. ONCE SHE GETS PREGNANT THEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TWO LIVES. WHEN SOMEONE GETS PREGNANT, THEY DON'T GO AROUND SAYING "I'M HAVING A MASS OF CELLS", NO THEY SAY I'M GOING TO HAVE A BABY, A NEW LIFE. fOR ALL OF YOU THAT SAY IT'S OK TO TELL WOMAN TO HAVE ABORTIONS WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO SAY TO THESE LITTLE SOULS WHEN YOUR LIFE COMES TO AN END?


So, no abortions. That second "life" is sacrosanct. How come you "pro-lifers" don't argue too control EVERY aspect of the pregnant woman's life? You don't force women to stop smoking or getting drunk even though there are known biological--sometimes fatal--consequences which will severely impact the baby later in life. You people don't value life. Someone is doing one thing with their body that you don't like--removing a parasite. That bothers YOU, so you tell them how to live. Hypocrites. Every one of you. live4dving Recommend(2)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse usaone wrote: YES IT'S THE WOMANS RIGHT TO SAY NO TO SEX, YES SHE HAS THE RIGHT TO MAKE SURE THEY USE PROTECTION NOT TO GET PREGNANT. ONCE SHE GETS PREGNANT THEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TWO LIVES. WHEN SOMEONE GETS PREGNANT, THEY DON'T GO AROUND SAYING "I'M HAVING A MASS OF CELLS", NO THEY SAY I'M GOING TO HAVE A BABY, A NEW LIFE. fOR ALL OF YOU THAT SAY IT'S OK TO TELL WOMAN TO HAVE ABORTIONS WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO SAY TO THESE LITTLE SOULS WHEN YOUR LIFE COMES TO AN END? I DIDN'T THINK YOU WOULD BE TREATED VERY GOOD HERE ON EARTH. 11/13/2010 9:40:39 AM YES IT'S THE WOMANS RIGHT TO SAY NO TO SEX, YES SHE HAS THE RIGHT TO MAKE SURE THEY USE PROTECTION NOT TO GET PREGNANT. ONCE SHE GETS PREGNANT THEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TWO LIVES. WHEN SOMEONE GETS PREGNANT, THEY DON'T GO AROUND SAYING "I'M HAVING A MASS OF CELLS", NO THEY SAY I'M GOING TO HAVE A BABY, A NEW LIFE. fOR ALL OF YOU THAT SAY IT'S OK TO TELL WOMAN TO HAVE ABORTIONS WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO SAY TO THESE LITTLE SOULS WHEN YOUR LIFE COMES TO AN END? I DIDN'T THINK YOU WOULD BE TREATED VERY GOOD HERE ON EARTH. usaone RecommendNew Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse live4dving wrote: Replying to ReggieRighter: no one should be able to decide for another person. 11/12/2010 10:10:22 PM Replying to ReggieRighter:
no one should be able to decide for another person.

live4dving RecommendNew Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse grands wrote: Replying to jimjohnson: Bad choice of words in the headline of this article. When I hear of "targeting" clinics I think of the snipers, crosshairs and bullets with which some pro lifers threaten or kill women's reproductive health care providers. ...women's reproductive health care providers.....reprdution of what A CHILD 11/12/2010 10:00:27 PM Replying to jimjohnson:
Bad choice of words in the headline of this article.

When I hear of "targeting" clinics I think of the snipers, crosshairs and bullets with which some pro lifers threaten or kill women's reproductive health care providers.

...women's reproductive health care providers.....reprdution of what A CHILD grands Recommend(1)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse ReggieRighter wrote: Replying to jimjohnson: Bad choice of words in the headline of this article. When I hear of "targeting" clinics I think of the snipers, crosshairs and bullets with which some pro lifers threaten or kill women's reproductive health care providers. The instances of violence against pro-lifers is much higher than the isolated instance of Dr. Tiller's killer. Google "pro-abortion violence." 11/12/2010 10:00:02 PM Replying to jimjohnson:
Bad choice of words in the headline of this article.

When I hear of "targeting" clinics I think of the snipers, crosshairs and bullets with which some pro lifers threaten or kill women's reproductive health care providers.


The instances of violence against pro-lifers is much higher than the isolated instance of Dr. Tiller's killer. Google "pro-abortion violence." ReggieRighter RecommendNew Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse ReggieRighter wrote: Replying to ReggieRighter: Replying to impish: Replying to ReggieRighter: the only answer is better contraception. I look forward to the day we have that. Until then, no one should be able to decide for another person. We already are making decisions for other people in this manner. The problem is, the fetus developing in a woman's body has completely different DNA. It is a different human being, not just another piece of the woman's tissue. The criminal justice system charged Scott Peterson with 2 murders for the death of his wife Lacy and their unborn son, Connor. But if Lacey had aborted Connor, it would not be a crime according to our federal laws. The humanity of Connor did not change. However, our legal system recognized the personhood of Connor in one instance, with the murder of his mother, but would not have recognized his personhood, had Lacy chosen abortion. 11/12/2010 9:55:16 PM ReggieRighter wrote: Replying to impish: Replying to ReggieRighter: Impish -- the fetus couldnt survive but were pressured into carrying the fetus to term with horrible results. Earlier there was a posting about how the only answer is better contraception. I look forward to the day we have that. Until then, no one should be able to decide for another person. 11/12/2010 9:41:09 PM Replying to impish:
Replying to ReggieRighter:
Impish -- the fetus couldnt survive but were pressured into carrying the fetus to term with horrible results. Earlier there was a posting about how the only answer is better contraception. I look forward to the day we have that. Until then, no one should be able to decide for another person.

ReggieRighter RecommendNew Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse live4dving wrote: Replying to Gene130: RExcept that cluster of cells will become a person if left alone. That bolt will not become a Buick or KIA No, like the bolt needs a factory for assembly into a car, those cells need the woman to become a child. Take the cells out of the woman and put them on the counter, and just like the bolt, they will just sit there--well, not for as long. Eventually they'll just dry up. 11/12/2010 8:31:47 PM Replying to Gene130:
RExcept that cluster of cells will become a person if left alone. That bolt will not become a Buick or KIA


No, like the bolt needs a factory for assembly into a car, those cells need the woman to become a child. Take the cells out of the woman and put them on the counter, and just like the bolt, they will just sit there--well, not for as long. Eventually they'll just dry up. live4dving Recommend(1)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse live4dving wrote: Replying to Gene130: Replying to live4dving: Replying to Gene130: I am sure hundreds of women have writen books about what a wonderful experience their abortion was and how happy they are in later life that they had one, two or three. I just have missed them. Do they need to? No one said it was a "wonderful experience"... How about just one that says it was the thing to do and made her life better by killing another one? She needs to assure anyone but herself that it was the correct thing to do now? Or if she regrets it, publicly admit it? What about you? Would you write a memoir for all the world to read about your most intimate moments and difficult decisions? No. They don't owe you anyone else a scintilla of a reason as to why they did it or how it made them feel. The right to do with her body as she sees fit doesn't end on the day of the procedure. 11/12/2010 8:28:10 PM Replying to Gene130:
Replying to live4dving:
Replying to Gene130:
I am sure hundreds of women have writen books about what a wonderful experience their abortion was and how happy they are in later life that they had one, two or three. I just have missed them.


Do they need to? No one said it was a "wonderful experience"...

How about just one that says it was the thing to do and made her life better by killing another one?


She needs to assure anyone but herself that it was the correct thing to do now? Or if she regrets it, publicly admit it? What about you? Would you write a memoir for all the world to read about your most intimate moments and difficult decisions? No. They don't owe you anyone else a scintilla of a reason as to why they did it or how it made them feel. The right to do with her body as she sees fit doesn't end on the day of the procedure. live4dving Recommend(1)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse Gene130 wrote: Replying to impish: Replying to ReggieRighter: Replying to impish: In my opinion...granted it is just my opinion...no one should be able to decide for any other person whether a medical procedure is justified. The idea that a cluster of cells the size of my little finger is a human life is religion based. Actually science has proven that the little cluster of cells is a human life. What do you think those cells grow into? a Buick? You were once composed of a small cluster of cells, does that make you not human? It is the legal profession who has determined that that cluster of cells is not a person, just as they decided that slaves were not persons, blacks were not persons, and women were not persons, until Supreme court decisions were reversed. A cluster of cells is no more a person than a bolt is a buick. Except that cluster of cells will become a person if left alone. That bolt will not become a Buick or KIA 11/12/2010 8:16:06 PM Replying to impish:
Replying to ReggieRighter:
Replying to impish:
In my opinion...granted it is just my opinion...no one should be able to decide for any other person whether a medical procedure is justified. The idea that a cluster of cells the size of my little finger is a human life is religion based.

Actually science has proven that the little cluster of cells is a human life. What do you think those cells grow into? a Buick? You were once composed of a small cluster of cells, does that make you not human?

It is the legal profession who has determined that that cluster of cells is not a person, just as they decided that slaves were not persons, blacks were not persons, and women were not persons, until Supreme court decisions were reversed.

A cluster of cells is no more a person than a bolt is a buick.

Except that cluster of cells will become a person if left alone. That bolt will not become a Buick or KIA Gene130 Recommend(1)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse Gene130 wrote: Replying to ReggieRighter: Impish -- you should check out Lia Mills on Youtube, and her discussions of human development and personhood of the unborn. You should also check out www.justiceforchristin.com, which details Dr. Leroy Carhart's botched abortion of 19y/o Christin Gilbert on January 13, 2005. This report shows Carhart to be as bad as the back street butchers we were supposed to fear if we didn't have "legal" abortion by qualified providers. I have seen his clinic, and it resembles an autobody shop. 11/12/2010 8:09:58 PM Replying to ReggieRighter:
Impish -- you should check out Lia Mills on Youtube, and her discussions of human development and personhood of the unborn.

You should also check out www.justiceforchristin.com, which details Dr. Leroy Carhart's botched abortion of 19y/o Christin Gilbert on January 13, 2005.

This report shows Carhart to be as bad as the back street butchers we were supposed to fear if we didn't have "legal" abortion by qualified providers. I have seen his clinic, and it resembles an autobody shop. Gene130 Recommend(1)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse Gene130 wrote: Replying to HMJohnson: Here is the deal. If you don't want an abortion then don't have one. It is no ones business what other people do to their own bodies. Thank God for the fact that the law is the law still in Iowa, or are you stupid enough to think ousting more judges will make a difference. Stupid people suck. Yes you do. 11/12/2010 8:04:13 PM Replying to HMJohnson:
Here is the deal. If you don't want an abortion then don't have one. It is no ones business what other people do to their own bodies. Thank God for the fact that the law is the law still in Iowa, or are you stupid enough to think ousting more judges will make a difference. Stupid people suck.

Yes you do. Gene130 RecommendNew Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse Gene130 wrote: Replying to live4dving: Replying to Gene130: I am sure hundreds of women have writen books about what a wonderful experience their abortion was and how happy they are in later life that they had one, two or three. I just have missed them. Do they need to? No one said it was a "wonderful experience"... How about just one that says it was the thing to do and made her life better by killing another one? 11/12/2010 8:03:25 PM Replying to live4dving:
Replying to Gene130:
I am sure hundreds of women have writen books about what a wonderful experience their abortion was and how happy they are in later life that they had one, two or three. I just have missed them.


Do they need to? No one said it was a "wonderful experience"...

How about just one that says it was the thing to do and made her life better by killing another one? Gene130 RecommendNew Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse HMJohnson wrote: Here is the deal. If you don't want an abortion then don't have one. It is no ones business what other people do to their own bodies. Thank God for the fact that the law is the law still in Iowa, or are you stupid enough to think ousting more judges will make a difference. Stupid people suck. 11/12/2010 7:42:31 PM Here is the deal. If you don't want an abortion then don't have one. It is no ones business what other people do to their own bodies. Thank God for the fact that the law is the law still in Iowa, or are you stupid enough to think ousting more judges will make a difference. Stupid people suck. HMJohnson Recommend(3)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse jimjohnson wrote: Bad choice of words in the headline of this article. When I hear of "targeting" clinics I think of the snipers, crosshairs and bullets with which some pro lifers threaten or kill women's reproductive health care providers. 11/12/2010 7:40:46 PM Bad choice of words in the headline of this article.

When I hear of "targeting" clinics I think of the snipers, crosshairs and bullets with which some pro lifers threaten or kill women's reproductive health care providers. jimjohnson RecommendNew Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse live4dving wrote: Replying to Gene130: I am sure hundreds of women have writen books about what a wonderful experience their abortion was and how happy they are in later life that they had one, two or three. I just have missed them. live4dving wrote: Replying to usaone: Remember they were just a group of useless cells. P S can I send this to your children? Sure, you can. Can I send yours pictures of aborted fetuses? Your morality is not my own. I have no problem separating and recognizing that the decisions we make as a couple do not impact those of another couple. Again, I don't have to make that choice. See (and I'll go slowly here), I am a father and a husband AND I live with and support my family. AND we CHOSE to have children. You may do as you see fit. But you are correct. They are just cells--not a human being and if a woman makes the choice to have an abortion, I certainly wouldn't make that decision more difficult. If you are a man, you must consider yourself very fortunate to sit on high as you instruct the women beneath you what they may and may not do with their bodies by YOUR dictate. That sounds fun. I wish I had the arrogance to pull it off. You sir, sure are lucky, gee whiz. 11/12/2010 5:38:52 PM Replying to usaone:
Remember they were just a group of useless cells. P S can I send this to your children?


Sure, you can. Can I send yours pictures of aborted fetuses? Your morality is not my own. I have no problem separating and recognizing that the decisions we make as a couple do not impact those of another couple. Again, I don't have to make that choice. See (and I'll go slowly here), I am a father and a husband AND I live with and support my family. AND we CHOSE to have children. You may do as you see fit. But you are correct. They are just cells--not a human being and if a woman makes the choice to have an abortion, I certainly wouldn't make that decision more difficult. If you are a man, you must consider yourself very fortunate to sit on high as you instruct the women beneath you what they may and may not do with their bodies by YOUR dictate. That sounds fun. I wish I had the arrogance to pull it off. You sir, sure are lucky, gee whiz. live4dving Recommend(1)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse impish wrote: Replying to ReggieRighter: Impish -- you should check out Lia Mills on Youtube, and her discussions of human development and personhood of the unborn. You should also check out www.justiceforchristin.com, which details Dr. Leroy Carhart's botched abortion of 19y/o Christin Gilbert on January 13, 2005. And you should start reading about how overpopulation is destroying our world, how there is already not enough food to go around in many places. You need to read the stories about women who died giving birth. The stories about women who were told by their doctors that the fetus couldnt survive but were pressured into carrying the fetus to term with horrible results. Earlier there was a posting about how the only answer is better contraception. I look forward to the day we have that. Until then, no one should be able to decide for another person. 11/12/2010 5:27:10 PM Replying to ReggieRighter:
Impish -- you should check out Lia Mills on Youtube, and her discussions of human development and personhood of the unborn.

You should also check out www.justiceforchristin.com, which details Dr. Leroy Carhart's botched abortion of 19y/o Christin Gilbert on January 13, 2005.

And you should start reading about how overpopulation is destroying our world, how there is already not enough food to go around in many places. You need to read the stories about women who died giving birth. The stories about women who were told by their doctors that the fetus couldnt survive but were pressured into carrying the fetus to term with horrible results. Earlier there was a posting about how the only answer is better contraception. I look forward to the day we have that. Until then, no one should be able to decide for another person. impish Recommend(2)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse usaone wrote: Replying to live4dving: Replying to Roper46: Maximum child support payments and alternate weekend visitations will cure your empathy. Why would I pay child support? I'm married to the mother of our children. Which of these don't you like, making payments or seeing your children. If you didn't have to make payment would you keep the kids, or would you rather had them aborted? Remember they were just a group of useless cells. P S can I send this to your children? 11/12/2010 5:22:45 PM Replying to live4dving:
Replying to Roper46:
Maximum child support payments and alternate weekend visitations will cure your empathy.


Why would I pay child support? I'm married to the mother of our children.

Which of these don't you like, making payments or seeing your children. If you didn't have to make payment would you keep the kids, or would you rather had them aborted? Remember they were just a group of useless cells. P S can I send this to your children? usaone Recommend(1)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse Aaron2 wrote: Replying to thinking_r_u: Nah, you don't get it. We have NOT thrown the full weight of our science OR our marketing prowess into better contraceptive practices. So what would that be? Shouldn't equal "weight" and marketing be put to the only known way to prevent be 100% that you don't have an unintended pregnancy? Everytime you have sex, you take the risk of landing an STD or a pregnancy...everyone knows this. If you don't want the possible outcome of the action...isn't it reasonable to choose not to do the action? We should stop looking at pregnancies as unwanted, but just unplanned. If you get pregnant, it's just a happy surprise, not a life sentence. Where's the marketing for that? 11/12/2010 5:22:32 PM Replying to thinking_r_u:
Nah, you don't get it.

We have NOT thrown the full weight of our science OR our marketing prowess into better contraceptive practices.


So what would that be? Shouldn't equal "weight" and marketing be put to the only known way to prevent be 100% that you don't have an unintended pregnancy?

Everytime you have sex, you take the risk of landing an STD or a pregnancy...everyone knows this. If you don't want the possible outcome of the action...isn't it reasonable to choose not to do the action? We should stop looking at pregnancies as unwanted, but just unplanned. If you get pregnant, it's just a happy surprise, not a life sentence. Where's the marketing for that? Aaron2 RecommendNew Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse ReggieRighter wrote: Impish -- you should check out Lia Mills on Youtube, and her discussions of human development and personhood of the unborn. You should also check out www.justiceforchristin.com, which details Dr. Leroy Carhart's botched abortion of 19y/o Christin Gilbert on January 13, 2005. 11/12/2010 5:05:12 PM Impish -- you should check out Lia Mills on Youtube, and her discussions of human development and personhood of the unborn.

You should also check out www.justiceforchristin.com, which details Dr. Leroy Carhart's botched abortion of 19y/o Christin Gilbert on January 13, 2005. ReggieRighter RecommendNew Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse impish wrote: Replying to ReggieRighter: Replying to impish: In my opinion...granted it is just my opinion...no one should be able to decide for any other person whether a medical procedure is justified. The idea that a cluster of cells the size of my little finger is a human life is religion based. Actually science has proven that the little cluster of cells is a human life. What do you think those cells grow into? a Buick? You were once composed of a small cluster of cells, does that make you not human? It is the legal profession who has determined that that cluster of cells is not a person, just as they decided that slaves were not persons, blacks were not persons, and women were not persons, until Supreme court decisions were reversed. A cluster of cells is no more a person than a bolt is a buick. Your belief otherwise is not binding on any other person other than yourself. ReggieRighter wrote: Replying to impish: In my opinion...granted it is just my opinion...no one should be able to decide for any other person whether a medical procedure is justified. The idea that a cluster of cells the size of my little finger is a human life is religion based. Actually science has proven that the little cluster of cells is a human life. What do you think those cells grow into? a Buick? You were once composed of a small cluster of cells, does that make you not human? It is the legal profession who has determined that that cluster of cells is not a person, just as they decided that slaves were not persons, blacks were not persons, and women were not persons, until Supreme court decisions were reversed. 11/12/2010 4:56:10 PM Replying to impish:
In my opinion...granted it is just my opinion...no one should be able to decide for any other person whether a medical procedure is justified. The idea that a cluster of cells the size of my little finger is a human life is religion based.

Actually science has proven that the little cluster of cells is a human life. What do you think those cells grow into? a Buick? You were once composed of a small cluster of cells, does that make you not human?

It is the legal profession who has determined that that cluster of cells is not a person, just as they decided that slaves were not persons, blacks were not persons, and women were not persons, until Supreme court decisions were reversed.
ReggieRighter RecommendNew Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse impish wrote: In my opinion...granted it is just my opinion...no one should be able to decide for any other person whether a medical procedure is justified. The idea that a cluster of cells the size of my little finger is a human life is religion based. Abortions have been performed since humans figured out how. In the beginning, supposedly it was just an herbal drink that did the trick. (most of the time successfully). With the earth as overpopulated as it is, the idea that we should not control our population growth with contraceptives and abortion is ludicrous. When the men who wrote the bible said go forth and procreate...i don't think they meant to keep doing it even if threatened our planet. I think that goal is accomplished. To all of you who are so upset over the idea that an unwanted fetus could be aborted....grow up, look around you and start taking care of the people already here. 11/12/2010 4:49:31 PM In my opinion...granted it is just my opinion...no one should be able to decide for any other person whether a medical procedure is justified. The idea that a cluster of cells the size of my little finger is a human life is religion based. Abortions have been performed since humans figured out how. In the beginning, supposedly it was just an herbal drink that did the trick. (most of the time successfully). With the earth as overpopulated as it is, the idea that we should not control our population growth with contraceptives and abortion is ludicrous. When the men who wrote the bible said go forth and procreate...i don't think they meant to keep doing it even if threatened our planet. I think that goal is accomplished. To all of you who are so upset over the idea that an unwanted fetus could be aborted....grow up, look around you and start taking care of the people already here. impish Recommend(3)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse live4dving wrote: Replying to Roper46: Maximum child support payments and alternate weekend visitations will cure your empathy. Why would I pay child support? I'm married to the mother of our children. 11/12/2010 4:46:32 PM Replying to Roper46:
Maximum child support payments and alternate weekend visitations will cure your empathy.


Why would I pay child support? I'm married to the mother of our children. live4dving Recommend(1)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse live4dving wrote: Carhart's former, former employees said the employees who accused him of being chemically impaired were nothing but a bunch of busy bodies who, because he wouldn't give them the raise they demanded went to AG with charges that could not be corroborated. I read it somewhere in a paper online at some point in the past year. I swear it's true. 11/12/2010 4:40:46 PM Carhart's former, former employees said the employees who accused him of being chemically impaired were nothing but a bunch of busy bodies who, because he wouldn't give them the raise they demanded went to AG with charges that could not be corroborated. I read it somewhere in a paper online at some point in the past year. I swear it's true. live4dving Recommend(2)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse Roper46 wrote: Replying to live4dving: Replying to grands: No woman is pregnant by Immaculate Conception, the law foreclosing a fathers rights is not a law at all but a nullity that provides a legal basis for abortions that would probably be more rightfully considered the revenge of Lilith , absent any irregularity’s that would have already permitted such a procedure health rape incest exc Carry a child to term and deal with all that entails. THEN you may come back and complain that a father's rights supersede that of the mother's when all the father did was contribute the catalyzing agent. I AM a father, but what my wife is going through right now doesn't even compare to how little I am personally involved from a biological standpoint. Maximum child support payments and alternate weekend visitations will cure your empathy. 11/12/2010 4:38:51 PM Replying to live4dving:
Replying to grands:
No woman is pregnant by Immaculate Conception, the law foreclosing a fathers rights is not a law at all but a nullity that provides a legal basis for abortions that would probably be more rightfully considered the revenge of Lilith , absent any irregularity’s that would have already permitted such a procedure health rape incest exc


Carry a child to term and deal with all that entails. THEN you may come back and complain that a father's rights supersede that of the mother's when all the father did was contribute the catalyzing agent. I AM a father, but what my wife is going through right now doesn't even compare to how little I am personally involved from a biological standpoint.

Maximum child support payments and alternate weekend visitations will cure your empathy. Roper46 RecommendNew Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse live4dving wrote: Replying to ReggieRighter: Carhart's former employees also stated that he performed abortions while chemically impaired. Link your sources. Where. is. the. link. for. the. story. There is, surprisingly, no mention of the investigation on the AG's actual, official site, which is interesting to say the least. 11/12/2010 4:38:34 PM Replying to ReggieRighter:
Carhart's former employees also stated that he performed abortions while chemically impaired.


Link your sources. Where. is. the. link. for. the. story. There is, surprisingly, no mention of the investigation on the AG's actual, official site, which is interesting to say the least. live4dving Recommend(3)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse ReggieRighter wrote: Carhart's former employees also stated that he performed abortions while chemically impaired. 11/12/2010 4:36:17 PM Carhart's former employees also stated that he performed abortions while chemically impaired. ReggieRighter RecommendNew Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse ReggieRighter wrote: Replying to puddleduck: Replying to ReggieRighter: Dr. Leroy Carhart is under investigation in Nebraska for unsantitary working conditions, dried blood on medical instruments, missing narcotic drugs,falsifying gestational ages of fetuses (listing them as older, because he can get more money for the procedure) and against Nebraska law,( which requires a minimum of an LPN or RN to start IVs and administer medication) having unlicensed personnel start IVS and administer medication. Clearly this man is dangerous. Please cite your sources. This info sounds like it may be from anti-abortion groups, and may not therefore be true. Any legal citations from Nebraska? The Nebraska Medical Association? Any legitimate unbiased source? There was an article in the World Herald on 8-28-09. Four of his former employees filed affidavits with NE AG Jon Bruner. 11/12/2010 4:33:52 PM Replying to puddleduck:
Replying to ReggieRighter:
Dr. Leroy Carhart is under investigation in Nebraska for unsantitary working conditions, dried blood on medical instruments, missing narcotic drugs,falsifying gestational ages of fetuses (listing them as older, because he can get more money for the procedure) and against Nebraska law,( which requires a minimum of an LPN or RN to start IVs and administer medication) having unlicensed personnel start IVS and administer medication. Clearly this man is dangerous.


Please cite your sources. This info sounds like it may be from anti-abortion groups, and may not therefore be true. Any legal citations from Nebraska? The Nebraska Medical Association? Any legitimate unbiased source?

There was an article in the World Herald on 8-28-09. Four of his former employees filed affidavits with NE AG Jon Bruner.
ReggieRighter RecommendNew Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse live4dving wrote: Replying to techpubs: "Carhart said he believes Nebraska's fetal pain law is unconstitutional, and his plan to open new clinics is designed partly to help him withstand a prolonged court battle." From the article. And I acknowledged that it is permissible at later dates in IA than NE. And the courts may become involved after the states have acknowledged the advances and changed their laws. I fully support his constitutional right to challenge the law or, alternatively, to maintain his practice in the face of the suit. I must have missed that point. Thanks for pointing it out. 11/12/2010 4:30:26 PM Replying to techpubs:
"Carhart said he believes Nebraska's fetal pain law is unconstitutional, and his plan to open new clinics is designed partly to help him withstand a prolonged court battle."
From the article. And I acknowledged that it is permissible at later dates in IA than NE. And the courts may become involved after the states have acknowledged the advances and changed their laws.


I fully support his constitutional right to challenge the law or, alternatively, to maintain his practice in the face of the suit. I must have missed that point. Thanks for pointing it out. live4dving Recommend(3)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse techpubs wrote: Replying to live4dving: Replying to techpubs: This whole article comes down to one basic concept. ... file a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the new law that is based on the concept that pain is felt inside the womb at 20 weeks of gestation. ... Sounds more like he is opening a practice to perform legal medical practices that are permissible in one state and not in another. If the courts feel that science has advanced to the point that the "line" need be drawn elsewhere, it will, and has do/ne so. "Carhart said he believes Nebraska's fetal pain law is unconstitutional, and his plan to open new clinics is designed partly to help him withstand a prolonged court battle." From the article. And I acknowledged that it is permissible at later dates in IA than NE. And the courts may become involved after the states have acknowledged the advances and changed their laws. expatDSM wrote: Replying to 58edition: Abortion is one of the biggest human rights atrocities of our time, The position that abortion is always wrong and that there is a human being in the womb from the moment of conception is a religious idea mostly propagated by the doctrine of the roman cahtolic church, and by many fundamentalist protestant groups. At the moment of conception the sperm and the ovum unite creating one cell. To proclaim that this one cell is already a full humand being and should be treated as such is so patently absurd that it is almost difficult to refute. It is as if someone claimed that one brick is already a house. The same is true for a developing embryo. In order for it to be a human being it needs an internal organization, organs and especially a human brain to be considered full human. The embryo is the result of sexual intercourse, procreation is often not the goal. It doesn't have the attributes of a human being and thus cannot properly be considered one. 11/12/2010 4:08:02 PM Replying to 58edition:
Abortion is one of the biggest human rights atrocities of our time,


The position that abortion is always wrong and that there is a human being in the womb from the moment of conception is a religious idea mostly propagated by the doctrine of the roman cahtolic church, and by many fundamentalist protestant groups. At the moment of conception the sperm and the ovum unite creating one cell. To proclaim that this one cell is already a full humand being and should be treated as such is so patently absurd that it is almost difficult to refute. It is as if someone claimed that one brick is already a house. The same is true for a developing embryo. In order for it to be a human being it needs an internal organization, organs and especially a human brain to be considered full human. The embryo is the result of sexual intercourse, procreation is often not the goal. It doesn't have the attributes of a human being and thus cannot properly be considered one. expatDSM Recommend(3)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse sanityindesmoines wrote: Replying to 58edition: He was very much alive and human at birth, and has grown up to be a wonderful young man with much to offer.. Precisely. The phrase "at birth" is pertinent here. And your singular experience with your son, and your natural and understandable reaction to it, definitely support a position such as "I will never choose abortion." It doesn't really bolster taking that option away from others, however. And you'd have to demonstrate in some concrete way that this doctor, or any physician, takes any kind of relish from performing this procedure. He must know he's taking his life in his hands on the chance that fanatics such as a Randal Terry, or others like him, might want to take potshots at him or advocate for such action. I doubt he takes this lightly or malevolently at all. 11/12/2010 4:05:58 PM Replying to 58edition:
He was very much alive and human at birth, and has grown up to be a wonderful young man with much to offer..


Precisely. The phrase "at birth" is pertinent here. And your singular experience with your son, and your natural and understandable reaction to it, definitely support a position such as "I will never choose abortion."

It doesn't really bolster taking that option away from others, however. And you'd have to demonstrate in some concrete way that this doctor, or any physician, takes any kind of relish from performing this procedure. He must know he's taking his life in his hands on the chance that fanatics such as a Randal Terry, or others like him, might want to take potshots at him or advocate for such action. I doubt he takes this lightly or malevolently at all. sanityindesmoines Recommend(2)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse live4dving wrote: Replying to techpubs: This whole article comes down to one basic concept. He is expanding to other states where the law is less restrictive so that he can afford to file a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the new law that is based on the concept that pain is felt inside the womb at 20 weeks of gestation. We have seen tremendous advances in medicine since 1973 and the question becomes one of whether or not we should re-evaluate the 22-24 week period that was believed to be the lower limit in 73 and make adjustments according to more recent knowledge. Sounds more like he is opening a practice to perform legal medical practices that are permissible in one state and not in another. If the courts feel that science has advanced to the point that the "line" need be drawn elsewhere, it will, and has do/ne so. 11/12/2010 4:02:36 PM Replying to techpubs:
This whole article comes down to one basic concept.
He is expanding to other states where the law is less restrictive so that he can afford to file a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the new law that is based on the concept that pain is felt inside the womb at 20 weeks of gestation.
We have seen tremendous advances in medicine since 1973 and the question becomes one of whether or not we should re-evaluate the 22-24 week period that was believed to be the lower limit in 73 and make adjustments according to more recent knowledge.


Sounds more like he is opening a practice to perform legal medical practices that are permissible in one state and not in another. If the courts feel that science has advanced to the point that the "line" need be drawn elsewhere, it will, and has do/ne so. live4dving Recommend(2)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse live4dving wrote: Replying to grands: No woman is pregnant by Immaculate Conception, the law foreclosing a fathers rights is not a law at all but a nullity that provides a legal basis for abortions that would probably be more rightfully considered the revenge of Lilith , absent any irregularity’s that would have already permitted such a procedure health rape incest exc Carry a child to term and deal with all that entails. THEN you may come back and complain that a father's rights supersede that of the mother's when all the father did was contribute the catalyzing agent. I AM a father, but what my wife is going through right now doesn't even compare to how little I am personally involved from a biological standpoint. 11/12/2010 4:00:28 PM Replying to grands:
No woman is pregnant by Immaculate Conception, the law foreclosing a fathers rights is not a law at all but a nullity that provides a legal basis for abortions that would probably be more rightfully considered the revenge of Lilith , absent any irregularity’s that would have already permitted such a procedure health rape incest exc


Carry a child to term and deal with all that entails. THEN you may come back and complain that a father's rights supersede that of the mother's when all the father did was contribute the catalyzing agent. I AM a father, but what my wife is going through right now doesn't even compare to how little I am personally involved from a biological standpoint. live4dving Recommend(3)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse live4dving wrote: Replying to 58edition: My son was born prematurely - the same age as babies Carhart and scum like him delight in murdering. He was very much alive and human at birth, and has grown up to be a wonderful young man with much to offer. Abortion is one of the biggest human rights atrocities of our time, not only against the murdered child but against the women violated by abortion. No amount of moral numbness, ignorance or rationalization will change that fact. Obviously your personal experiences have colored your perception of the issue which is understandable. No seeks to take that away from you. However, you cannot presume to speak for every woman who faces this decision for her own personal reasons. Your morality is not another's and vice versa. You don not own the monopoly on morality for the mere reason that you believe strongly one way due to your own personal experiences. All women are "violated" by the procedure? Your opinion, nothing more. 11/12/2010 3:57:48 PM Replying to 58edition:
My son was born prematurely - the same age as babies Carhart and scum like him delight in murdering. He was very much alive and human at birth, and has grown up to be a wonderful young man with much to offer. Abortion is one of the biggest human rights atrocities of our time, not only against the murdered child but against the women violated by abortion. No amount of moral numbness, ignorance or rationalization will change that fact.


Obviously your personal experiences have colored your perception of the issue which is understandable. No seeks to take that away from you. However, you cannot presume to speak for every woman who faces this decision for her own personal reasons. Your morality is not another's and vice versa. You don not own the monopoly on morality for the mere reason that you believe strongly one way due to your own personal experiences. All women are "violated" by the procedure? Your opinion, nothing more. live4dving Recommend(3)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse techpubs wrote: This whole article comes down to one basic concept. He is expanding to other states where the law is less restrictive so that he can afford to file a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the new law that is based on the concept that pain is felt inside the womb at 20 weeks of gestation. We have seen tremendous advances in medicine since 1973 and the question becomes one of whether or not we should re-evaluate the 22-24 week period that was believed to be the lower limit in 73 and make adjustments according to more recent knowledge. 11/12/2010 3:47:12 PM This whole article comes down to one basic concept.
He is expanding to other states where the law is less restrictive so that he can afford to file a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the new law that is based on the concept that pain is felt inside the womb at 20 weeks of gestation.
We have seen tremendous advances in medicine since 1973 and the question becomes one of whether or not we should re-evaluate the 22-24 week period that was believed to be the lower limit in 73 and make adjustments according to more recent knowledge.
techpubs RecommendNew Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse grands wrote: No woman is pregnant by Immaculate Conception, the law foreclosing a fathers rights is not a law at all but a nullity that provides a legal basis for abortions that would probably be more rightfully considered the revenge of Lilith , absent any irregularity’s that would have already permitted such a procedure health rape incest exc 11/12/2010 3:43:12 PM No woman is pregnant by Immaculate Conception, the law foreclosing a fathers rights is not a law at all but a nullity that provides a legal basis for abortions that would probably be more rightfully considered the revenge of Lilith , absent any irregularity’s that would have already permitted such a procedure health rape incest exc grands RecommendNew Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse 58edition wrote: My son was born prematurely - the same age as babies Carhart and scum like him delight in murdering. He was very much alive and human at birth, and has grown up to be a wonderful young man with much to offer. Abortion is one of the biggest human rights atrocities of our time, not only against the murdered child but against the women violated by abortion. No amount of moral numbness, ignorance or rationalization will change that fact. 11/12/2010 3:43:10 PM My son was born prematurely - the same age as babies Carhart and scum like him delight in murdering. He was very much alive and human at birth, and has grown up to be a wonderful young man with much to offer. Abortion is one of the biggest human rights atrocities of our time, not only against the murdered child but against the women violated by abortion. No amount of moral numbness, ignorance or rationalization will change that fact. 58edition Recommend(4)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse expatDSM wrote: Replying to RHPITY: />Wow you people are sick. There is nothing about this situation that justifies laughter. Whether you belive in a woman's right to choose or if you are prolife, or whatever either way the situation in which a woman feels she has to have an abortion is no laughing matter. Shameful! My humor is not the real problem. The real problem is the starvation, misery, poverty and potential for global violence and destruction and call for a concerted action on the part of governments, institutions, and society at large to effectively control overpopulation. It is imperative to control human fertility and to only have children who can be well taken care of, receiving not only food, shelter, and eductaion, but also the emotional sustenance that comes from a loving home and parents who can provide love, affection and care. To prevent the birth of unwated children by family planning, birth control and abotion is preventive medicine and the prevention of violence in our world society. 11/12/2010 3:29:46 PM Replying to RHPITY:
/>Wow you people are sick. There is nothing about this situation that justifies laughter. Whether you belive in a woman's right to choose or if you are prolife, or whatever either way the situation in which a woman feels she has to have an abortion is no laughing matter. Shameful!

My humor is not the real problem. The real problem is the starvation, misery, poverty and potential for global violence and destruction and call for a concerted action on the part of governments, institutions, and society at large to effectively control overpopulation. It is imperative to control human fertility and to only have children who can be well taken care of, receiving not only food, shelter, and eductaion, but also the emotional sustenance that comes from a loving home and parents who can provide love, affection and care. To prevent the birth of unwated children by family planning, birth control and abotion is preventive medicine and the prevention of violence in our world society. expatDSM Recommend(4)New Post Reply to this Post Report Abuse sanityindesmoines wrote: Replying to Bickr: Conception certificates? Brilliant idea! Mind if I flesh the concept out a bit? It could propel the Pro-Life Movement into a new era? I assume you're talking to me here. Sure, why not? I'd love to see someone rationalize this one. 11/12/2010 3:27:45 PM